From Fear to Freedom: Conflict Resolution with Scott Tillema

Ever wondered how to navigate through difficult conversations without losing your cool? Then tune in to this fascinating chat with Scott Tillema, a seasoned hostage negotiator and renowned professional speaker. Scott takes us on a captivating journey from the pressure-cooker settings of hostage negotiations to the high-stakes world of public speaking. He shares his unique paradigm on approaching conflicts and the importance of creating a safe space for constructive dialogue.

Scott's philosophy of leaning into fear led him to the TEDx stage in 2016 and, possibly, to your earbuds today. He brings a wealth of insights from his years in crisis management, with lessons applicable in both personal and professional settings. You'll hear about a riveting real-world story where his team's negotiation skills saved a woman's life. It's not just about the adrenaline-pumping moments, though. Scott also takes us through the nuances of active listening, the power of open-ended questions, and the art of reflecting back on what's been said - all essential tools in the arsenal of effective communicators.

In the latter part of our engaging discussion, we delve into different conflict approach styles and the significance of recognizing our emotional responses. We navigate the tricky terrain between knowledge and skill, underscoring the need for teaching communication strategies at the university level. Scott's invaluable insights provide actionable strategies to improve communication and navigate conflicts in a productive, respectful manner. So join us for an episode that will redefine how you approach discussions and negotiate your path in life.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY'S EPISODE:

Connect with Scott:
 LinkedIn
Watch his TedTalk
Visit his Website
Company Website
Book Scott is reading -Triggers by Marshall Goldsmith.
 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

You're listening to the what Women Want Today podcast. If you love the idea of being part of a community of women who are looking to thrive, not just survive, you're in the right place. Join hosts Terry Cullums and Amanda Keeper each week, as they bring you topics and guests to help you improve your relationships, your health and your emotional and spiritual well-being.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Hello, my friend Amanda. So glad to be back with you recording these episodes back to get into the swing of things. It's been fun.

Speaker 3: 0:37

Oh my gosh, I am thrilled. It feels like it's been forever and I'm just feeling this renewed sense of energy and purpose today, now that we're back in it.

Speaker 2: 0:47

You know our guest today, scott Tilliman. Right, that's how you print Tilliman, tilliman, he's murdered people's last names. Anyway, I'm so excited to bring this to our audience. It was a fantastic interview. There was so much information and I feel like it was information that people could put into use for both their personal lives and their professional lives. You know, the season is all about our different types of relationships, so I'm curious to get the feedback from our listeners on how they're feeling about what he had to say today. I wanted to know what your key takeaway was from today's interview.

Speaker 3: 1:24

Well, just so you know. You know I'm a note taker and whenever we have guests, I write things down and I have three pages of notes. Yeah, interview with Scott. You know he talked about conflict in such a different way that I'm used to. He really understands that in order to have a good outcome when you are in a conflict situation, that safety is number one. You have to feel safe in the conversation. Your body has to be regulated. You need to be able to make sure that you are feeling like the outcome is going to be something that is full of great possibility. He really talked a lot about mindset. One of the things that I love that he said is that when people are really experts at conflict, it's not like I'm good at this. This is who I am.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Right.

Speaker 3: 2:15

I am. I am an expert at conflict negotiation and it's not something I'm acting, it's not something that I'm trying on. This is who I am and I think just that mindset shift of could I? Amy Cuddy, a famous sociologist, says can I fake it until I become it? Like not fake it to you, make it, but fake it till you become it. And imagine practicing those skills over and over and over and over and over and over again and you don't really feel like it's who you are and you don't really feel confident yet. But you do it so much and as an FBI negotiator, he says you have to become it, it has to be who you are to be an expert at it.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Yeah, and I love that we're always so into each other, because what I wrote down was, excuse me, the disconnection between knowledge and skill. So what I took away from that particular comment of his was you know, I've said it many times like I don't like conflict. I don't like conflict, but I know, I've noticed in my own life that it's gotten so much easier because we don't come out of the gate, we don't come out of the womb with this skill. It's something that we have to. We learn about it first, and then we have to keep practicing and putting into practice.

Speaker 2: 3:30

And you and Gary, your husband and Scott had a few minutes to chat afterwards and he had so many good things to say.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Like that's just interesting. I wish we would have been recording, because not only do we have to make it safe for people, which I think is huge I think that's a huge one for me. I'm going to, like you know how I am, I'm going to sit on that today and I'm going to I'm going to keep reflecting on you know, how do we make sure that people are safe in these conversations? But also it's like it's okay to be upset, it's okay to have emotions, it's okay sometimes for the level of conversation to start out. You know, and I'm for the YouTube listeners you can see me, I'm putting my hands down low, but sometimes they escalate and that's okay. And I really loved hearing him say that because for me, oh, that's the hard part. You know, like you start out difficult enough and then when it escalates, it starts to feel even worse, and I liked hearing him say that today that that was okay. It's okay when it opens.

Speaker 3: 4:32

It was a sweet moment. My husband was in the room listening to the podcast the whole time and he came over and jumped in after the episode was over and he was really honest about what we struggle with, which is that I can get to the point where I kind of lost it, Like I, you know, I've lost my shit, Like it happens in every relationship. I'm not, I'm not afraid to admit it and I get that overwhelm and overstimulated, Like I really just I'm dysregulated, which means that I'm overwhelmed with emotion. I can't really think properly. Nothing effective is going to come from that conversation. But Scott answered the question and my husband said like how can I, how can I be a better partner in when she's in that moment? And he basically said let her have that moment, Let her let her express all that anger and all that frustration and let her like reach her peak of emotional distress and it's okay. And we all said they're kind of like, oh man, that's so affirming to hear that, yeah, that's so affirming.

Speaker 3: 5:35

And then he referenced the book the Body Keeps the Score and it's so important that our, our emotions and the energy that we stuff and stuff and stuff has a release and that actually we can be such a sacred space for each other if we allow each other to be able to release at that level and then still like each other afterwards and still give each other grace and forgiveness and understanding All right, my friends.

Speaker 2: 6:00

Well, let's let the listeners listen to this fantastic interview today, and I'm so excited.

Speaker 3: 6:07

Yeah, it's going to be one of those that you want to listen to multiple times, and I'm so excited. Please share your thoughts with us and reach out to Scott Tillema if you want him to come to your company, because you would not regret it.

Speaker 2: 6:20

Yeah, I agree 100%. All those links for him will be in the show notes. We talk about them towards the end of the episode, but they'll all be in the show notes for our listeners today. All right, here we go, let's roll. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of what we Want Today podcast. I'm your host, Terry Callums.

Speaker 3: 6:36

And I'm your co-host, Amanda Keeper. So, oh yeah, go ahead. You were so fine. So Terry and I are just jumping back into a new season, so forgive us for our little pause there. I'm so excited today to welcome our guest, Scott Tillema.

Speaker 3: 6:52

Scott, we met at a Spark conference that was put together from a former high school friend of mine and then not a former, she's still up front of mine Cindy Rowe, and we ended up at a conference together and I met Scott and I'm like, oh my gosh, your message is so on point with what I believe in and what I teach at Rock Valley and what I do in my business. And Terry, I called Terry right away and I'm like, look, I met this guy. We have to have him on the podcast. So, Scott, you have such a rich and interesting history that led you to where you are today. I want to, instead of me like reading some bio that you have, I just want you to tell us who are you. How did you go from hostage negotiator to where you are right now? So if you could give us some of your background and just share that history with us, that would be awesome.

Speaker 4: 7:39

Yeah, perfect. First things first. Hello Amanda, hello Terry, thank you for having me on today. Great to be with you and your audience. Yeah, this has been a very cool journey that I'm on right now. So I am a professional keynote speaker right now. I love speaking from stage and bringing my message to audiences truly across the country and around the world, and it's been a bit of a pivot for me. I have just completed this year a 20 year career in law enforcement in the Chicago area and I have moved into professional speaking and I am a partner with a company that I founded, the negotiations collective. We're an international negotiations and conflict resolution training firm and we're bringing messages of connection, communication, conflict resolution, influence and negotiation to people everywhere, because I think that, truly, this is one of the most important skills that we can have, one of the most needed skills in today's very divided society that we live in. So this is a little bit about what I do professionally.

Speaker 2: 8:43

I love what you just said. I love that because we are so divided and I know we're going to have a great conversation today, but before we jump in I wanted to tell you I was going to say I was stalking you a little bit, but then I thought should I really say that to a former police enforcement officer? No, I saw that you are a Packers fan, though. Packers.

Speaker 4: 9:05

I am a Wisconsin I like Packers fan yeah. I'm originally from Wisconsin. I grew up in Milwaukee, just outside Milwaukee, went to school in Madison for five years. I was on the five year undergraduate plan, having a very good time at the University of Wisconsin. So I'm not very well liked in Illinois during football season, particularly when the Bears are terrible and they haven't won a game in a year. So I'm a proud Wisconsin guy through and through.

Speaker 2: 9:31

Well, amanda and I are both from Illinois and I don't know. We've been friends for like 16 years. I still don't know how she feels about football, but I am a Packer fan. I just learned that Aaron Rodgers is no longer a Packer. We kind of took a little hiatus from football. My husband was so ticked that everybody was taking a knee so he didn't want to watch anymore. So then I didn't want to watch either. But yeah, I just learned Aaron Rodgers is gone. Who's the new quarterback?

Speaker 4: 9:54

Yeah, we have somebody. His name is Jordan Love. We drafted him three years ago. He's been hanging out for a while and now he's taken over the team. We're happy to have a new hopefully franchise quarterback on board for the next 15 years or so and, of course, wish Aaron Rodgers the best in his new endeavors. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I still miss that part.

Speaker 4: 10:14

Of course, who doesn't?

Speaker 3: 10:16

This conversation was going so well. It's a bit turd, no-transcript so quickly. So, scott you, you pivoted from a 20 year career in law enforcement and you started on the circuit of becoming a speaker. So let me ask you first of all, how did you come up with the idea to pivot? So a lot of our women listeners are professional women and they have multiple career tracks and they like to get creative and innovative with what they do. So how did you pivot into the speaking circuit?

Speaker 4: 10:45

Yeah, I've got a philosophy of saying yes to things that scare me, so this was not a designed pivot at all. So we're going to hit the rewind button to 2016. When I received a message on LinkedIn from a gentleman who says hey, I'm working with a TEDx conference and we want to bring you on as a speaker, and our idea is we want to have someone who can teach people how to have a conversation with people who are different from them in a very civilized way. And the idea was this TED conference was going to be the week of the US presidential election, so we got 2016, trump versus Clinton and the discourse was really negative. So I think initially their idea was let's have a lawyer come up and do this. And then somebody said, how about a hostage negotiator? And then everybody got excited like, hey, that would be really cool. This is somebody who knows how to communicate in these types of situations.

Speaker 4: 11:47

But the challenge for me was this was seven weeks before the event, so I didn't apply for this. I did an audition for this and I had no background ever being on a stage as a speaker. But in my work in crisis and hostage negotiation, by definition, we're communicating with people in very stressful situations. So I was like I'm going to be communicating with people in a stressful situation. How bad can this be Right? So, whereas most speakers start at the rotary or the local church or wherever and kind of work their way up to the Ted or TEDx stage, I started there and now I'm kind of working my way backwards to figure out how this whole process of professional speaking works. And long story short, the video was published, it's been seen a few times and I get invitations to speak about my work in negotiation.

Speaker 3: 12:40

It's still humble. It's been seen a few times. So it's been seen a few times. I saw you on YouTube. The reality is, scott, as you've been selling out crowds. I've seen your LinkedIn, I've been following and you are getting quite the recognition. So can you give us some nuts and bolts? What are you bringing to the workforce now that transfers from your work in hostage negotiations, like when you walk into a company? How do you help them? What are the problems? You're helping themselves.

Speaker 4: 13:08

Yeah, and it depends what they're looking for, because the idea of conflict resolution and influence can be used in so many different ways. I found some success in the leadership realm, where we're working with leaders to be great communicators and great influencers. So it's not just because of their title or their position in the organizational chart, it's truly because people want to follow them. And it's such a frustration for so many of us to say, hey, my leader is not a leader, he or she's not very good at what they're doing. And a lot of times people get promoted because they're technically very good at what they do, but they haven't been giving the training to be powerful leaders. So that's a group that I work with through YPO and some other organizations working with the HR community right now.

Speaker 4: 13:53

And HR, what a challenging profession.

Speaker 4: 13:56

They're dealing with emotional people and they're having difficult conversations.

Speaker 4: 14:00

So I tell them I'm going to teach you the same principles that I've learned in these life or death conversations so you can apply them and use them in your very difficult conversation with someone who might be emotional, who might be in a difficult, dark time in their life, getting some bad news, getting fired, maybe getting demoted, not getting the promotion, and that really falls to HR. We work with project managers who are working with teams of people and maybe not so much negotiating on the outside. But how do we bring all these people together to have a successful project on time on budget? And it's really interesting to see where the requests are to say, hey, we want to bring this to us, and sometimes it's keynotes for an event, sometimes it's corporate training for a half day, full day or more than that, and it's just exciting to connect with them and give what I know in my experience and say I'll, might this help you? And then really engage them in that conversation to get very specific on takeaways that they can use and put into practice right away.

Speaker 2: 15:05

How often do you think culture gets in the way?

Speaker 4: 15:09

Often it's tough to change culture, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2: 15:12

it is, and it's. My experience has been that sometimes a one level of leadership will get the culture shift and yet it doesn't trickle down or maybe it doesn't trickle up. So when you're talking about having some of these crucial conversations, I imagine that some of it is teaching, maybe lower level to bring difficult topics to the upper level. Who may be out of touch of what's going on with the company, what's going on in the actual trenches? Here's what's coming to my mind a situation where a leader wants everyone to just kind of like, go along with the, with the ride, right, they just want you to drink the Kool-Aid or whatever, and below that you're trying to shift and change. So you know your, your leaders, asking you a question you're not drinking the Kool-Aid and all of a sudden you've got some conflict right. Those are crucial conversations. Those are really difficult conversations.

Speaker 4: 16:08

For sure, and that's scary for people to try to lead up. When I challenge people that we need to lead up and challenge our leaders to be humble, and I'll share stories of my negotiations that maybe didn't turn out very well and I'll ask them what is the goal here? Is your goal to be right? Is your goal not to be challenged, not to be embarrassed, or is your goal to get the correct outcome for your organization and the people you serve? And I think that's what negotiations about. It's about reaching an outcome, the acceptable outcome, the optimal outcome for everybody involved, and that begins with working to understand.

Speaker 4: 16:48

So when we're teaching negotiation, I want to be very, very clear. Your power comes from information and options, and you're going to get neither if you're up there talking the whole time. So we teach people how to be great listeners, how to ask powerful questions, how to connect with others, because once you got that bond, then you've got a little bit of safety. You've got that influence that you can extract some of that information to help you make better decisions. So it's not about being a smooth talker at the table, and while that's part of it, it's really much more about being a listener. So we'll challenge. Hey, come into these meetings and ask questions and be a listener.

Speaker 3: 17:25

Right and Scott, everything you said was so on point to what I believe as well. And you use the word safety. It's really about creating safety so that people can have the regulation in their nervous system You've heard me talk about this so they can think about better outcomes and have information and options. So my question to you are what are the barriers to great outcomes?

Speaker 4: 17:50

I think egos are always one of them. If it has to be my idea or I'm not playing and you'll see that on teams that if it's not me or my thing, I'm not going to go along with that, so that can be a barrier. People who don't manage themselves very well can be big barriers, and this this can show up in a variety of different ways. So maybe we'll just take a minute and reflect on this one. How are we managing ourselves to make sure that we are not a barrier? Because when things don't go well, it's easy to look outside and say this person's not doing that, this situation should be different.

Speaker 4: 18:27

But we rarely reflect on ourselves to say how can I show up differently? And managing ourselves could be simply just understanding our triggers. What upsets me, what can be done or said that's going to throw me off? Am I impatient? Am I not taking in the information? Do I see it incorrectly? Do I see it improperly? Maybe it has my vision of this changed over time? Are we willing to admit that I'm growing, I'm maturing, I'm developing and how I see this? So how about we start? With ourselves as a barrier? I am the barrier to preventing this, to getting to the outcome that we want. And maybe, if we come in with that mindset, think of how differently we come in to say I'm just going to keep working on myself, rather than pointing the finger at things I can't control.

Speaker 2: 19:16

Yeah, self-awareness is huge, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 19:20

So you, when I was listening to you talk, I was just fascinated. How fascinated. Excuse me, how you translated this. Can you give us a personal story from your experience, one of your experiences in Hastis negotiation, where you were just really proud of the outcome and you didn't know if it was going to go south, but you were able to get the outcome that you wanted.

Speaker 4: 19:43

Yeah, there's a lot of these that are happy endings and a lot of times they're resolved even before the SWAT team gets there. But if you're calling for the SWAT team, things have escalated pretty substantially and there's nothing that's done without a team. So if anybody's out there thinking this is Denzel Washington on his cell phone strutting up and down New York City looking good, it doesn't work like that. You know, it's always a team and everybody's always contributing to a good outcome. And one of the ones that stand out in my mind was a woman who had been stalked by a man for many years, or maybe a year, and they had a romantic relationship. It had gone south and he wasn't getting the message and she was so afraid she actually moved out of her home after he had been arrested because she was concerned he was going to come back and harm her.

Speaker 4: 20:40

And this is a woman. Who's listening to that gift of fear a really great book by that same title out there. And a few days later he found her, showed up with a gun and started threatening her and the other two women that were at this home, and then from there things escalated pretty quickly. As they call police. This woman was grabbed by this man who's now holding a gun, and when the first police officer got there, this man with a gun shot the police officer right in the neck and the cheek. So this violence escalated significantly and she was in serious danger of being harmed or killed. And the negotiation team went to work and they worked for hours and I was there on the scene watching, participating in this negotiation, and everybody was contributing in their own way, and our lead negotiator on this one, joan, was terrific, but not for her work this woman wouldn't be alive today, because, statistically, when the FBI teaches this type of situation, it's shown to be not good that this is a victim to be and showing how prone this man was already to violence and how little regard he had for life. It was incredible that this woman survived this incident physically unharmed, and all the credit in the world to these negotiators who really give their I mean, this is their life work.

Speaker 4: 22:18

It's not just something that they do, and when you're having conversations that have this level of consequence, you have to be really, really good at what you do. So I try to put that in perspective for the audiences that we're working with to say what difficult conversation are you afraid of. They're going to tell somebody, hey, they didn't get the job, they're not getting promoted, or a performance review, it's not going very well. Or I need to talk to a supplier and say, hey, we need to up our prices. Okay, tell me what's the worst that's going to happen here. And you kind of give them this perspective and give them that confidence of I can do this. And it's actually very kind to have these difficult conversations, because what happens if we don't? What are we doing for that person if we don't, if we're afraid to do that? So that's just one of many examples of the amazing work that these train negotiators do in really, really tough situations.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Yeah, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking. You know, I've been in a difficult situation where I felt like I had to put people at ease and I felt myself getting calmer to be able to put them at ease. Tell me what's going on in your body when you're in that very tense, stressful situation like how are you feeling?

Speaker 4: 23:30

Well, first of all, we got to make sure that it's not a tense, stressful situation, that this is just what I do. This is a part of who I am and this is. It's like tying your shoes. This is just something that we do. So for a regular person, it would be a lifetime event to be part of something like this, but in the work of law enforcement, particularly on a SWAT team, this is pretty standard business. We're getting there. There's potential for violence where there has been violence and we need to get into these conversations.

Speaker 4: 24:00

But, that being said, it's not quite that easy. I mean, I remember my first negotiation and it was intense and I was struggling to remember the things I was supposed to say and the tactics I was supposed to use and all the things we have been taught, just simply because I haven't operated under that much stress before. It's different when you're practicing in the classroom with friends and colleagues versus, hey, this is for real and there's an outcome tied to this. So you just get comfortable in the training and practice that this is how it is, this is what it looks like, here's the sounds and the effects going on around you. So you're going to prepare like you're doing the real thing and then getting good at your breath work to make sure I am managing myself that when I am delivering the message, that it sounds good, that the delivery is probably just as powerful as the message itself.

Speaker 4: 24:54

So when I am speaking it's going to be smooth and calm, because I want them to feel my comfort.

Speaker 4: 25:01

I want them to feel that hey, I've got this. And I think that we draw our strength from others when it's a tough situation and we're looking at this person and they're like I've been here before, I'm going to get you through it. And sometimes for me that means just slowing down a little bit. I get excited and I want to talk and give you everything I have, and that just means intentionally slowing my pace down and maybe speaking a little bit more softly. It has a little bit greater effect, the words have a little bit more impact and I really am trying to get this person to mirror what I'm doing, because if they're a little bit slower and a little bit more calm, it's less likely they're going to make an emotional decision and, whether it be in any negotiation or conflict situation, we sometimes make emotional decisions that are not the best for us or for the outcome. So we just want to make sure that people can be very thoughtful about this when they're going about their work.

Speaker 2: 25:54

And so that translates very well into the workplace, when you're the one that's initiating the crucial conversation practicing your breath, work, thinking about what you want to say ahead of time and maybe even practicing it before you head into that conversation. Is that what I hear you saying?

Speaker 4: 26:11

We're sure and I'll challenge my audiences all the time Number one should always be preparing for this. Don't wing it If it's a conversation that's going to have a consequence tied to it. But most people will develop what they're going to say. They'll have their talking points and consider here's what I'm saying. But rarely do people ever consider how they are saying, how they are delivering the message. And you can get an executive coach and work with you for $500 an hour, or you can record yourself on your iPhone and play it back how do I sound? How is the delivery? But also, how do I look? How are the nonverbals?

Speaker 4: 26:48

If there is a difference between what we see and what we hear, I think we're going to default to what we see. So are we being mindful of our facial expressions, our hand gestures, our posture, our body language? Because people are taking in this information even before you start talking. So there's so much, so many little adjustments that can be made that have such a tremendous impact on how we are received. So I'll ask them how is your person effect? How do people receive you? And this is this is so important. So are you practicing this? And just a couple reps watching yourself on video, you're going to say, oh, this is terrible because we're our own biggest critic, right, and what do you think on that? Aren't we critical of ourselves, you're sure?

Speaker 2: 27:29

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 27:31

Scott, as you're talking, I'm just absolutely fascinated in the parallels between what you do and also what I talk about with my clients in marriage counseling. And I'm not sure if I told you about this, but there's a book called Hold Me Tight from Sue Johnson and it is definitely parallel to everything that you teach and it would add more depth and breadth. So I'm going to give you that resource. It's amazing, but what you're talking about is something that Sue Johnson talks about in her book.

Speaker 3: 27:54

When you're in a conflict with your spouse or your significant other, it's like everything is slow and soft.

Speaker 3: 28:02

And when you are going 100 miles a minute and you're arguing with each other and you're talking super, super fast, like it's so easy for our brains to shut down and go into that fight or flight mode and we're like the reptilians again. And when you talked about body, that's something that I've really had to work with with my husband, because I come from a trauma background with a dad who was a Vietnam veteran and there was a lot of violence in my house and I've tried to explain to him that even your body, your size, is an intimidating thing to me. And when we argue, I'm looking at every micro moment and my body is remembering that from my childhood. And so, as you're giving that example, the reality is is people that we work with and everybody we encounter. They have those histories and those pasts that we have no knowledge of, and to have that awareness that we are really our job is to manage ourselves and to soothe other people in those really hard conversations is so vital.

Speaker 4: 28:58

And being. Once you can manage yourself, then you have the capacity to think beyond yourself and then we can be much more thoughtful of the other and explore their pain and explore their perspective. And for the people who are amateurs at this, they're so busy trying to manage themselves, they're thinking about what to say next. Maybe they're listening to that person, maybe they're not. They don't have awareness of their delivery. And when they're at this level, how can you in any way be able to connect with that person and truly be thoughtful and present and explore some probably deeply, pretty privately held thoughts and emotions and go deep with them when you're not able to manage yourself?

Speaker 4: 29:41

So there's so many people that have pain. I think that this is a huge driver of behavior and so many people are not mindful of that and particularly in a time where we've all gone through stress, anxiety, lost, trauma, grief and the last couple of years, we're not aware of that because nobody's really sharing that on their social media. I'll let you see the picture of me out on the beach, the picture of me smiling with my friends or with my family, but we don't share these moments and sometimes, when we don't see it, we don't believe that it's there. So I think those who are mindful that everybody's going through something can have a little bit more grace, a little bit more patience, and that's an important mindset to go into society with.

Speaker 2: 30:28

Yeah, I've always hated conflict. I'm a little bit in the same boat with Amanda a lot of childhood trauma and so conflict to me kind of equals potential for loss. So when I think about entering a difficult conversation with someone in my personal life or personal relationship, I always think, well, what if it makes it worse? And I'm going to talk on your website today. It says to avoid conflict is to fail. Tell me what you mean by that.

Speaker 4: 31:00

We see conflict as an opportunity to find amazing results. That conflict is always going to exist because there are different people competing with different interests, and I want my team to be focused on what's right for me and your team to be focused on what's right for you. But what are we going to lose by having a conversation to say here's what I'm looking for? And a negotiation is not about making you believe what I believe. A negotiation is about reaching an agreement, and usually that means that you have something that I want or that I need or that I could value. So we should have a rich discovery and exploration to say what do you have that combined, we can do better things and bigger things. It's a collaborative piece here. So in the broader aspect of negotiation, why not explore how we can grow together and how we can use our strengths to get more? But in a true conflict situation, it's not going to resolve itself that.

Speaker 4: 32:05

We have five different styles of conflict approach, and one of them is the avoider. Well, how you can close your eyes and hope it goes away. But if somebody is approaching you in your personal life and they say I have this emotion or this thing that hasn't been met and we avoid it and we avoid it. Okay, maybe they haven't brought it up again or lately, but I'll assure you that desire that hasn't been reached is not going to go away. It's not going to fix itself. There's a reason. They came to you with this request or with this feeling, so let's discuss it.

Speaker 4: 32:41

Maybe it means that we can't do that, but I also really challenged the students of my classes to add the words right now to a lot of what they say. That no sometimes means not now, or hey, you're in a very difficult relationship, a very difficult position. Finances are tough and I want to honor what you're saying. I'm not going to sugarcoat that and be like, oh, things are going to get better. Hey, I can see this is a very dark period for you right now, because I'm honoring where you're at and not devaluing it by telling you it's going to be okay.

Speaker 4: 33:16

But, putting that perspective in, say we still need to turn the page because we don't know what tomorrow brings. Everything you say might be correct. The facts are what the past has shown you. But that doesn't mean that we give up. That doesn't mean that we're not going to make an effort for what could be and I think the very best negotiators are possible lists. They believe what is possible. I might not know how to get from where we are to where we want to go, but I believe that we can do that and with that mindset we can do this and we're going to continue to explore. With the different people and resources that we have, I believe that we can make the future possible. I know where we want to go. We're just going to figure out how do we get there.

Speaker 3: 33:58

We'll give one example for us. I know there's confidentiality things that you have to be respectful of but can you give an example of something you're really proud of, where you went into a company or helped when they seemed to be at an impossible impasse, but you helped make it possible?

Speaker 4: 34:15

Yeah, we get feedback from companies and individuals that we work with. I do individual coaching and just two days ago I was working with an executive on leadership and communication and influence and it was only our fourth session together and he's telling me about the conversations that he has the courage and the confidence to have, that he's been meaning to have and he goes. I feel the bond deepening with my team that I'm serving, even though I'm delivering the bad news, and we teach them put that fish on the table, be willing to say here is the issue, and now let's work through that, rather than all the pleasantries and oh, by the way, let's fix this one thing and then the conversation is over. So, from individuals hearing that I am feeling closer to my team and we're going to get better results from this, I love that. So that's personal successes.

Speaker 4: 35:06

And just within the last week we had a, an organization that we worked with, come back and told us about how they've acquired two big contracts for them that they didn't think that they were going to get, and it turns out that it was a 90 times return on their investment for being in our one day class around conflict and negotiation. And they say we're using these tactics to help us get what we want. So we're seeing that people are getting more financially, they're getting better in their relationships and it's cool that I'll have people just randomly reach out to me hey, I watched your Ted talk and I'm using some of these principles that you talk about and we're finding success in all these different places, whether it be in their church and their company and their organization, and it's cool to see I never even considered using this approach or these techniques in your space, but I love to hear these positive outcomes that you're trying it and you're getting good results.

Speaker 3: 36:04

What an amazing journey you've had, just from somebody reaching out to you on LinkedIn saying hey, like what do you think about giving a TEDx?

Speaker 4: 36:13

And that's what it was. That's what it was, that you say yes to these things and it kind of goes back to that journey. I'm gonna say yes because that's where I want to be, because I don't know much about Ted talks, but it looks like people up there are pretty credible and established and you know they told us if you have a good talk will publish it and some of these talks could be life-changing for you and how your journey looks, as I cool. Well, I don't know what I'm gonna say for those 18 minutes that I have on that red dot or how that Approach is going to be, but I took some time and put it together. I said we're gonna figure out how to make it work and we did.

Speaker 3: 36:52

So I'm just it in. Sorry, terry, I'm always interested in learning about what's on your mind now. So you have topics. You clearly are a researcher. I can tell that you Are fascinated by human behavior and you read and you study. I can tell that what are you reading right now and what kind of topics are you fascinated in and diving into now?

Speaker 4: 37:13

Yeah, we. So my education is behavioral science and a couple other things in my undergrad. My master's degree is in psychology, so you're right on with those pieces studied at the Harvard program on negotiation. I do some work at IMD business school, so I'm around some of these folks who do this type of thing. I just picked up the book triggers, which is over here somewhere, goldsmith just very new so I can't tell you much about it. But it's talking about human behavior and how we're making, how we're adjusting behavior and how it's not just in the moment but how it could be over the long term. So I'm excited to dig into that.

Speaker 4: 37:56

I I'm the book recommendations for anybody who wants to get into Negotiation. I mean there's just so many I wouldn't know where to start. But If you're into influence, influence the psychology persuasion by Robert Sheldini is very good. Getting past no, william Uri is very good in negotiations. One of my favorite Hostage at the table by George Cole Reiser, who's had probably the most significant impact on my thinking around negotiation and bonding. Really he's an amazing man's very lucky to have studied under him and that's his book hostage at the table. So I mean we've got so many that we can get into beyond a reason using emotions as you negotiate, because we're all emotional people. We pretend that we're not, but we are, and in that one, dan Shapiro talks about five core concerns that we should be in tune with when we're communicating with others. So so many, so many good books, so so many great thinkers out there. I'm lucky to have learned from so many people and trying to synthesize that in my own unique way an approach to negotiations and conflict.

Speaker 2: 39:04

You know I was listening to something yesterday and that you know it was just talking about, like the progression of you know how we get into relationships with people and, and you know, somewhere around the age of like 15 or 16, we suddenly think that we're ready to be in a romantic relationship.

Speaker 2: 39:19

We have no idea who we are at that point, but you know, what it made me think was we should be teaching communication skills a lot earlier in life. And as I was listening to you talk, I was thinking, if there were, if you had, a magic wand, what kind of, what kind of things would you think we should teach much earlier in life? Like when it comes to this type of Topic, like conflict resolution, and and I even saw that you talked about gaining influence through connections Like we feel like we're living in in such a world where, you know, we're all on our cell phones and this is how we're communicating these days. And how often have you sent a text or something and someone took it the wrong way or so? Like Could we just like rewind things a little bit and say let's start talking about these things a lot earlier? And Also, I want to hear what the eight skills of active listening are.

Speaker 4: 40:16

Sure, so we'll start with that one. Eight skills of active listening. There's an acronym and it's more pies, mora, e, p, I, e, s, and any good negotiator Should be able to tell you that and be able to rip these off, and I'm sometimes disappointed that they're not. I feel like we need to do better in this space. But the eight of first are minimal encouragers, just saying yeah, mm-hmm, okay, let them know that you're still alive, because on the other end of the phone and traditionally we do our negotiations by telephone, so it's mm-hmm, yeah, okay. But now that we're changing how we've communicated in the last couple years, minimal encouragers. We should be doing this on video, you know, and it's almost a bit exaggerated to let them know hey, I'm still here with you.

Speaker 4: 40:57

The O is for open-ended questions, which I think is the most important of the active listening skills, and I found that in doing scenario based training with people under pressure will default to close-ended questions, the yes or no, and there's nothing against that. But we want to create a dialogue. Your goal is to create a connection and that begins with Creating a dialogue. And how do you do that? By asking good questions. The R is for reflecting or mirroring, which is simply repeating back the last three words that somebody said. You can do it like a Question. With that upward inflection or an affirmation, with that downward Authority piece, we got M or R E. Emotional labeling is the first E and that's where I'll show you the emotion wheel and anybody can Google emotion wheel right now and you're gonna have 150 emotions on a nice colorful circle and we're good at identifying those primary emotions happy, sad, anger. But when we get out we get a little bit more specific and a good emotion label sounds like you sound, a sense, you seem, and then fill in that emotion. And I don't like to do this too early in the conversation because we protect our emotions, we're a little bit protective, but once we get into it you give a nice emotion label at the right time. This person's gonna realize not only do you understand the content of what they're saying, but now you get the emotion behind it to it, now you're deepening that connection.

Speaker 4: 42:25

The P is for paraphrasing, which I think is really critical, particularly in cross-cultural negotiations or if there's a language barrier. My, my company, is up in Canada as our headquarters in Calgary, and a very Canadian word is keen. Are you keen? And you know, go walk around Chicago and you say, get a lot of people looking at you like what, what, what are you saying? What are you asking? So, even speaking the same language in different dialects of different regions, do I fully understand what you're saying? And let's not have an unforced air here, because we must understand each other.

Speaker 4: 43:00

I message is the I and this is I feel blank when you blank because blank. So I feel worried when you keep shooting that gun because it's unsafe. Or I feel concerned when you keep yelling at me because we're not able to have a real conversation. And this is just a polite way of saying hey, knock it off, stop that behavior. And I'm just gonna see if they actually stop that behavior. And it tests that connection to see if they really Can give you that reciprocity of I care about you as well. We're at the E and more pies. And this is An effective pause, because a pause or silence can be really powerful.

Speaker 4: 43:41

It can allow the person you're speaking with an opportunity to keep talking or it can really bring some attention to what you're about to say.

Speaker 4: 43:49

And I think politicians have figured this out and they're really good at mastering that pause as they lead into something powerful and the S is summaries. We're gonna gather everything that has been said, with all the content, with all the emotion behind what's been said, and we kind of put it together so the person knows hey, I'm right there with you. So I think most good negotiators can tell you the eight skills of active listening and Most people who have read some books on active listening can tell you that. And then it's a whole different story of putting that into practice, because there is a big disconnect between knowledge and skill. So I like working with people to build that skill rather than saying I can rip off the eight skills of active listening but I can't actually put that in a practice. Beep-beep and we have to hit the rewind button. There was a first part to that question and I've forgotten what that was. So if you had some before, that refreshed my mind and we'll try to hit on that.

Speaker 2: 44:44

It was sort of a thought that you know, we go, we get into the part of life where we think we're ready to be in a relationship, but we've never really been taught how to listen, how to communicate, because communicating is more than just talking, it's more than just trying to get your point across right, it's also listening and, as you've pointed out, connection as well. That's probably like what. Do you think? The three pieces of communication right there, or is there something I'm missing?

Speaker 4: 45:11

Yeah, and you had also mentioned like with our children, and we could teach at university level, because in my last few years in my role, I was a training coordinator, so I was responsible for bringing in new talent into these careers and law enforcement, and I know we're not alone out there when we're looking and we're trying to teach them the technical skills of how to do the job, but yet we're stuck on these communication pieces and the basic levels and I know that there are other jobs out there that people are going to be not saying the very same thing. We want to teach you to do what we do, but we need to start with all right. How do we interact? How do we professionally manage ourselves? How do we communicate?

Speaker 4: 45:51

But one of the Harvard professors, dr Joshua Weiss, has a series of kids books on the conflict resolution and negotiation. I have them and I've shared that with my children, who are 13, 10 and 7. And I teach them that, hey, you get what you negotiate for. You don't have to wait for somebody to give you something and you don't need to just say thank you when somebody does. You can ask for more. And I teach them rule number one is if you don't ask for it, you don't get it.

Speaker 4: 46:20

And some people think, well, it's in polite if I ask, or I don't want to bother the waitress that, hey, my order is not right or this is, we'll just kind of go. No, it's okay to say this, it's okay to stand up for yourself and let's be good at communicating. And we almost encourage a bit of conflict to allow them to have these conversations and work through it. We don't need to be the Superman to step in and come and immediate that for them. We're going to allow them to work through it and then ask them, hey, what worked well for you, what didn't? And really allow them to practice these skills as young people. So I think you come out with this great emotional intelligence that is going to allow you to separate yourself from everybody else in the world Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 47:03

I'm not going to agree more.

Speaker 3: 47:04

Not agree more. Yeah, but we just echoed each other. I could not agree more. So, as we wrap up today, how can people find you? Because you're going to, I know you have a lot of listeners that will be very excited to hear more about your background. And then we have an audience as well. Where can they find you if they want to hire you for a keynote or come into the company and do a training? Where can? What's the best way?

Speaker 4: 47:28

Yeah, I love doing those things and thank you for asking my website scottillamoncom my first name, last name easy to find there. Our company website is negotiationscollectivecom, so you can learn about me and my work either one of those places. But I am a regular person just like everybody else out there that's listening in right now. So if you're on LinkedIn, shoot me a LinkedIn request, put a little personal message with that and I manage my own account on LinkedIn and be happy to connect with you there and say hello back and explore how can we bring value to each other, because I know that everybody out there has great things that they're doing and always looking for a great opportunity to collaborate with others.

Speaker 3: 48:10

You are. Finally, I'm glad you said that you are doing some interesting collaborations. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the one with your friend that I met out in Utah?

Speaker 4: 48:23

Yeah, so one of the people that is in a speakers group that I'm part of engaging speakers. His name is Tom and we're looking at developing a two day class how to live like a high profile operator and this is going to bring in. He's got some background doing some celebrity bodyguarding, so he's got some access and stories to some pretty notable people that we've all heard of. One of his colleagues right now is a former CIA and he runs a spy week and a spy weekend out in Vegas. So looking at maybe bringing in aspects of this. Another gentleman, navy Seal, a psychologist from the Chicago area maybe bringing her in and where she's got extensive experience in the forensic world. So bringing all these people together to put on a two day class how to live like a high profile operator. So a whole bunch of pretty unique and high level skill sets that we're going to be able to share with others to say we're going to up your game very, very quickly and then continue to be a resource for them following.

Speaker 3: 49:32

So the point is you're doing so many creative and innovative things and there's lots of opportunities to collaborate, and I love that about what you're saying. This has been a fascinating interview. I know that our listeners are going to get so much value out of this. I'm so thankful that you said yes right away, and one thing that I want the listeners to know is when Scott says, reach out and he'll get back to you. Really well, he's like a very communicative type of person and he will follow through. So it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Speaker 4: 50:02

Thank you Terry, thank you Amanda 100% Until next time, everyone.

Speaker 3: 50:08

Have a great day.

Speaker 2: 50:14

I mean, I don't know if this ever happens to you, but I sometimes will learn something really cool on a podcast, on a YouTube video, audio book, whatever. I think I'm going to remember it and then I forget. Does that ever happen to you?

Speaker 3: 50:26

Yeah, I call it brain after 40 all the time.

Speaker 2: 50:29

That's what we'll officially call it.

Speaker 3: 50:32

When we come up with something, do you want to introduce it? Sure, it's from an app called Quick Jim Quick, and it's an acronym called FAST.

Speaker 2: 50:41

Yeah, in the F it stands for Facebook. So we're inviting you officially right now to come over and join us on Facebook. Get involved with the community, share your favorite episodes with your friends on Facebook.

Speaker 3: 50:51

Yeah, the A is go ahead and take an action, so you can't remember anything if you don't act.

Speaker 2: 50:58

And S is for subscribe. Make sure you're subscribed to our YouTube channel.

Speaker 3: 51:02

And then T is teach. Teach what you've learned to somebody else. Share the love.

Speaker 2: 51:06

All right, we hope that works for you. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next week. Bye.