Truths, Half-Truths and Lies: The Complexities of Honesty

Prepare to get tangled in a web of truths and untruths as we navigate the labyrinth of lies. From the innocent white lies, we tell to spare someone's feelings to the pathological lies that can signal deeper mental health issues, we pull no punches in this gripping exploration of deception. Get ready for a game of two truths and a lie, and a surprising list of 24 common harmless lies. Join us, Terri and Amanda, as we dissect the reasons why we lie, the implications, and the potential fallout.

Buckle up as we traverse the landscape of five common types of lies: white lies, pathological lies, lies by omission, self-serving lies, and lies to avoid punishment. We'll take you on a journey from the psychology of lying to protect one's image or gain an advantage to how it can be a coping mechanism for difficult emotions. Hear our personal stories about how lying impacted our lives and relationships. We also dive into the darker depths of compulsive lying, its implications and moral dilemmas. Can lies ever be necessary? Will the truth always set us free? Join us for an episode that will leave you deliberating long after the conversation ends.

JOIN THE SPARK CONFERENCE and see Amanda Speak LIVE

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Hello and welcome to what Women Want Today, podcast season three, the Soul Sister series, where we will tackle tough topics straight from our heart to yours. I'm Terri Kellams, your host and coach for women who struggle to find meaning in fulfillment in midlife.

Speaker 2: 0:17

I am Amanda Kieber. I am your new regular contributor. I come straight from the Midwest Rockford Illinois. I'm a public speaking teacher and leadership development professor. I'm also a coach and clinical mental health counselor. I am so thrilled to be here, and let's get started.

Speaker 1: 0:33

Let's do it. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the what Women Want Today podcast. I'm your host, terri Kellams.

Speaker 3: 0:40

Right there, I'm Amanda Kieber. Glad to be back this week. I feel like I haven't seen you in a while.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Terri, I feel the same way and I feel a little discombobulated today, if you like that big word yes, I love that word because my husband stole my chair and so I had to like find a different chair and I have a pillow underneath my bottom and I just feel I feel all of us A lot of thought. But what I'm excited about our topic today, and I want to start out playing a little game that I'm sure a lot of people have heard about, and when you're in a corporate meeting or a team meeting and someone brings up this game, everybody usually groans.

Speaker 3: 1:15

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Two truths and a lie, all right, so you go first, and then I'll give you mine.

Speaker 3: 1:23

Okay, I am a 50 year old Aquarius who lives in the Midwest.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Okay, so you're 50, you're an Aquarius and you live in the Midwest.

Speaker 3: 1:40

I just already messed up the game. I told you two lies and a truth.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Well, I know where you're BSing me anyway, so we'll just go with it. So I know you're not 50, because we would have done something epic if you had turned 50 this year. Thank you, sister. So that's your first lie, yeah. Second lie is that you are not an Aquarius, you are a Gemini, just like my husband. Your birthdays are a day apart, so don't bullshit me, okay All right, that's funny. This game is fun already, okay, and have you thought about what we're doing for your 50th birthday, by the way?

Speaker 3: 2:26

I would love to go to Europe. I'd like to go to Italy and Greece.

Speaker 1: 2:31

Oh girl, you're speaking my language, yeah. Okay, here's my two truths and a lie. Okay, brian surprised me this weekend. I went to the grocery store on Sunday and when I came home he had torn apart his entire desk area and a cabinet in the garage like a filing cabinet and he was organizing all of our paperwork. Okay, that's number one. You know, I'm planning a trip to come to Illinois slash Wisconsin, right there on the border and I'm also trying to go see my grandson and my daughters in Kansas City, and the flight and the hotel accommodations have just been such a nightmare that Brian and I decided we're driving our motor home all the way across country. Okay, number two. Number three I was working in my office this morning and a coyote walked right in front of my window and I was actually able to videotape it. It was so close to me I just could not believe it.

Speaker 3: 3:33

All right, well, this was easy.

Speaker 1: 3:36

This should be like a YouTube watch, like this podcast episode, because I tried so hard to mask this space of mine. Let's see how you did.

Speaker 3: 3:48

This was so easy peasy, lemon squeezy. So I know that you saw a coyote, because you saw a coyote that they're like and sent me a picture of it, so I know that is true.

Speaker 1: 4:00

It is true Again today.

Speaker 3: 4:02

I know that Brian did not come home and organize anything, so I know that's a lie and I bet you anything. You're traveling in the motor home to come visit everybody.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Can you believe my husband actually was like organizing stuff.

Speaker 3: 4:22

No, I knew that would throw you. You totally threw me. I was like, yeah right, brian's a Gemini and we don't have time for organizing on a Sunday.

Speaker 1: 4:31

I was like what did you do with my husband? Wow, Okay.

Speaker 1: 4:38

So he's trying to work, brian, yeah, so today I don't know if our listeners have caught on yet, but we are talking about lying. We are talking about the title lies, people tell why they tell them and the damage they can cause. And actually we have so much content we peered down today's conversation because we are going to spill this over into a future episode I'm kind of excited to talk about today. When you brought up the topic, I thought, well, okay, this is an interesting topic. I'm not sure how I'm going to approach this, but oh my gosh girl, after looking into it all weekend, I am fascinated by this topic.

Speaker 3: 5:24

Yes, there's so much on this topic. I feel like people could just really dive deep research. Go to Barnes Noble, go to the internet, go to Google and just type in why people lie or the damage that lies do, or the benefits of lying. You can really we can have a debate over this topic. We could do so many creative things. So, yeah, just keep an open mind and know that some emotions will come up, and that's perfectly acceptable. I think this topic will. For me, anyway, it brings up anger. It brings up silliness, because I know people lie for some really silly reasons. It brings up compassion, because I know people lie to protect their identity. So if we just look at it on a feelings level, there's just so many things that come up and I know that that's true for the human experience about lying.

Speaker 1: 6:26

So in my research, I came up with a list of how many? Did I say 20? 24. 24 harmless lies that people tell, and I want to invite the listeners to grab a piece of paper and a pen or whatever you've got close to you. It's little hashtags. I'm not going to throw you into the bus, amanda, but I am going to ask you out of 24 of these harmless quote unquote lies, how many are you willing to admit to? And I'll tell you mine too. All right, so some of them are kind of funny, speaking of silliness. But number one is I've got a headache, and I'm sure this is when the husband approaches you at bedtime and you don't want to have sex, okay. And number two follows very closely to that, which is faking orgasm.

Speaker 3: 7:15

Okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 7:16

I guess, to maybe just get it over with if you weren't in the mood enough. First, um, okay, um, how much their new item of clothing or personal hygiene, such as your hair nails or facials, really costs? Got it Okay? Um, how many sexual partners you've had? Okay, I'm supposed to be doing hashtags. Let me catch back up One. Okay, da, da, da, da, da, da da. Okay, I'm caught up.

Speaker 1: 7:47

Okay, number six your age. Number seven, lying on your resume. I would have never thought to lie on my resume. To be honest with you. I would be afraid they'd find out. Yeah, no, I agree. Okay, your weight, mm-hmm. Um.

Speaker 1: 8:05

So, lying about a work obligation to get out of? Something Like saying, oh, I wish I could, but I have to work, got it Okay? Um, number 10, oh, I didn't have a signal or my phone died, hmm. Um, calling in sick to your employer when you weren't really sick, obviously, yes, um, telling your um. I think this would apply to, like, if someone has cooked a meal for you. So if it was Gary or um, I don't know if we went to a friend's house and someone cooked a meal for me and telling them that it was great, when it really wasn't. Um saying, yes, that looks good on you, that looks great on you when it really doesn't.

Speaker 1: 8:51

Um, when someone is telling you something and you say, oh, that makes sense, when in your head you're thinking that makes no sense to me at all. Got it Okay. Um, let's see. When you tell somebody that you forgot, when in truth, like you really never intended to do it, so you're saying I forgot as an excuse or lie. Um, when you say, oh, I'm fine, it's fine, yes, hmm, hmm, okay, number 17,. I've got an appointment to get to. I'm sorry I got to go. So you're trying to get out of the copy that you're having with somebody. Or you're on the phone with someone and you're just like, oh, I got to get, I got to get to my appointment. Okay, oh, this is a tough one. Um, oh, your baby's adorable. Oh, it's great. It's true, that fix so hard. Oh, my gosh. When you say I love it and when someone gives you a gift and you really don't love it, Okay.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Um, when you say oh, that's interesting, when it's really not. When you say hey let's hang out soon. And you have no intention. And you have no intention, or hey, I'll call you later and you're, you're, never going to call. Yeah, um, just been so busy, I've been so busy, I've been busy, I've been busy, I've been so busy. And number 24. I love your hair like that. All right, so you got two hashtags tailed up there.

Speaker 3: 10:34

Yes, how many got? So I'm just going to tell you how many I haven't lied about Two, two.

Speaker 1: 10:46

Do you want to admit to the two you haven't lied about, or not?

Speaker 3: 10:50

Yeah, I mean I will and it's. It's interesting because some people have strong feelings about this, but I have not lied about sexual partners and what's number four.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Number four is how much you've spent on a new item of clothing or personal hygiene.

Speaker 3: 11:07

Okay, I've, I've lied about that. What's number five?

Speaker 1: 11:12

Um how many sexual partners you've had.

Speaker 3: 11:15

Okay, so there were two right at the top, but I have not lied about sexual partners. Um, and I actually had a really fascinating conversation with a colleague of mine that changed my perspective on that. Um, because I know people that have lied about sexual partners and I was. I was kind of mad about it and he he was like you know, what happened in my past really has nothing to do with my future and I don't feel like I owe anyone that information. And, uh, after a pretty intense conversation, I started to think a little bit differently about it.

Speaker 1: 11:47

You know. Okay, so I got some input on this one too, because I feel like there is such a double standard and I know many, many people are going to agree with what I'm about to say. But I feel like men like it's bragging, it's bragging rate. I've been with women, but for women you're a slut, you're a whore, you know. And so here's my take on it, because when I was growing up, my mom made it very obvious that sex was not something she enjoyed. Okay, I went through the majority of my life thinking sex was not great and you know, I didn't enjoy all that much. And then I got divorced and I had a few sexual partners that were amazing. And I'm like, why didn't I do this a lot sooner?

Speaker 3: 12:35

Yeah, and I think you bring up a great point and I know we're going to get this to this about reasons people lie, but I think that, if it wasn't already on your list, that people lie because of cultural norms, oh and so if you think about that, we that's a part of our culture. For women to deny and reduce and for men to boast and exaggerate, that's like a cultural norm. Yeah, you'll see that played out in movies, you'll see that played out in books, and so it makes you think like what other things do our cultures teach us to lie?

Speaker 1: 13:09

about. Well, and I don't even think it's just that we lie about, like, how many sexual partners we have had. I think sometimes we even lie, or maybe it's more of a liable mission to say I really enjoy sex, because women aren't supposed to say that, we're not supposed to really say, oh my gosh, right, you know I am starting to change. It is, it is and I'm glad. Yeah, I'm not going to get into how I feel about my daughters and their sexual habits, but I'm just. I just going to say that I have four daughters and I'm glad I never passed on that thing that my mom gave to me. You know, I'm hoping that they're enjoying they're. Three of them are married, one is a community relationship with a guy, so I hope they're all enjoying their stuff. Yes, yes, good job, momma. All right. So we're going to talk about the types of lies. Okay, so let me get to my. I have lots of notes today, girlfriends.

Speaker 1: 14:07

Okay so, white lies, which I think everybody knows. What a white lie is, that's that, you know, small, harmless lie that people tell to avoid hurting people's feelings, like telling you your baby's adorable, when it's not telling you they like your hair, like that or that outfit when it really does not look great, right? Those are the white lies, and then pathological lies, lies by omission. I think this one's interesting because I think lies by omission is probably a lot more common than people think. I don't know if you always will like recognize this when you do a lie by omission, so do you have a good example for this one? I was. I had one earlier now just flew out of my head.

Speaker 3: 14:52

Like well, if, if, so this is interesting. When Gary and I first started dating, we would be out somewhere and he'd be having a conversation with someone and I remember specifically someone said like yeah, I saw you over there at the Blackjack tournament or the poker tournament and I was like what I was? Like we were checking in all day and we were texting each other, like what we were doing and what was on the agenda in poker never got brought up into the mix and we were very newly dated. And I don't know if it's because he thought I had a certain kind of feeling or a certain type of feeling about gambling, but little did he know I would have wanted to be there.

Speaker 3: 15:30

I love gambling, so I think you know one of the reasons that people tell white lies and lie by omission is because they're trying to save face and protect their image.

Speaker 1: 15:43

Okay. So is this the same as lying by omission when you, let's, say, someone is has a very strong opinion about a belief that they have? Yes, and they're telling you about it and they're assuming that you feel the same way. Yeah, and you don't want the conflict, so you just let them assume that you feel that way. Is that an omission? Is that a lie by omission?

Speaker 3: 16:09

And that is a great question, and I'm sure that if you asked four different people, four people would have a different answer. Some some might answer and say well, I am only going to engage in something if I know I can impact and with this particular person. It would not be a good use of my energy to try to debate something that I feel very, very differently about, and so I'm making a conscious choice not to engage in that conversation where, whereas another person might say, you led me to believe that we had the same perspective on that issue because you didn't say otherwise, and they could be very hurt by that.

Speaker 1: 16:55

You are on your game today, dear. Okay, and the last one on my list of the types of people of lies that people tell are self-serving lies. So these are the lies that are told to make a person look better or to gain advantage over others. So this might be the lying on your resume type of lie, right?

Speaker 1: 17:14

Oh, definitely to gain advantage over another person and to say that you have a certain skill that you don't have Absolutely so out of those lies that I listened, those five types of lies that I listened, do you have a lie that someone has told you and please don't say who it was, or anything like that but that just sort of like you're like why, why, why, yeah, why would someone lie about something like that?

Speaker 3: 17:39

Yeah, for me it's. If somebody lies about things that I don't seem, I don't feel like those lies are serving them in a way that protects their identity. So, for example, if someone were to lie to me about how many awards they won when they were in high school and then I found out that they in fact didn't win any of those awards, it would make me ponder and question like, why would you embellish that type of Story? And now I know more. Now I know more that it's about. You know a lack of self-esteem and an image you wish you had and a longing for achievement and recognition. But in the past, when that kind of thing would happen, it would make me think okay, if you're lying about this, what else are you lying about?

Speaker 1: 18:35

Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say too. Yeah, like if you're lying over something so silly and insignificant, mm-hmm, what else are you lying about?

Speaker 3: 18:43

Yeah, but see, the thing is is that I've had to realize, from talking to people long enough, is that those things aren't insignificant to them.

Speaker 1: 18:51

Hmm, so it's like your part of their identity, like that, that makes them it could be.

Speaker 3: 18:57

It could be stemming from a really deep longing for an identity that they never had and that they observed other people having, and then that social comparison got the best of them and they had to create a world where they were surviving their own sense of self.

Speaker 1: 19:14

Hmm, well, this is what my research says about why people tell these lies, and this is what it says. It says To avoid punishment yes, I would. I would hashtag this one. I have told a lie to avoid punishment. Teen rewards To protect themselves or others as a defense mechanism, to protect their self image or to create one, like you were just saying, to cope with feelings of guilt or shame. Some people may like to manipulate or control others and To avoid conflict or confrontation. Protecting themselves, gaining an advantage or coping with difficult emotions me are some other reasons why people may lie.

Speaker 3: 20:04

And when you say that out loud, it's not like I'm mortified, it's like, yeah, I get it, I to me. Those are all reasons I have lied in the past and I have Talked to other people. Like you know, you bring up to protect somebody's image yourself or or another Right speaking of like a liable mission. You know, I remember Noah came home and told me one time he cheated on a test.

Speaker 3: 20:28

Hmm, Well, I probably should have Made him fuss up to it, right. But at the same time I'm like, oh my gosh, like what am I gonna send him back to school? And to have him tell his teacher that he lied on the test and then, I don't know, still to the stand like that was a parenting moment? That was probably a missed opportunity to teach a lesson, but I lied by omission.

Speaker 1: 20:53

I knew he cheated, yeah, yeah and I was thinking that, um, kind of like the protect thing, like with a little trigger for me, because, um, what in one of my marriage Well, it's my second marriage is gonna be really obvious. My second marriage, um, you know, I think there are just people in this world that are much more Equipped to be a step parent. It's easier for them. Um, I'm just gonna leave it right there.

Speaker 1: 21:22

I Oftentimes felt like I had to tell lies to my parents, sometimes felt like I had to tell lies to protect my kids from unnecessary punishment, yes, from an over zealous step parent who, you know, had a very, um, rigid set of rules that I just didn't agree with. So, in order, and so I'm avoiding conflict too, right, because I didn't want the conflict of Negotiating some of those unreasonable things, and so I just lied instead to cover for them when they would do things that I didn't think were anything wrong. Yeah, and I was the parent. So I felt very justified in my lying, um, to protect my, my daughters, and to protect their childhood, you know, from just such harshness, I guess.

Speaker 3: 22:06

Yeah, and what you're bringing up for me right now is clients who have told me stories about having to lie to their parent about their siblings so that they could protect them and it was a safety issue. Oh yeah, oh you from from physical violence. And so when I think about lying, like it's not black or white for me at all, it's a very great area and Um, for for some people it's a, it's a tool of survival.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Yeah, and you know, I I don't know that I Really like thought about it on a daily basis, like, oh, I'm, I'm a liar. I lied to my husband on a regular baseness. But I think when I was preparing to get married again, it was something that was important to me, to you know, to To not have that be an issue, going forward, to kind of like stand my ground and say you know what that may be your feeling, belief, whatever, but it's not mine and these are my children. This is different this time and I only had, I only had one child. That was different and you know anyway. Okay, so we have talked about the types of lies, uh-huh. Now let's talk about why people tell them. Okay, um, some people are compulsive liars, um, let's see. And some people lie due to mental health conditions. Hmm, some people lie because of childhood Experiences and trauma.

Speaker 3: 23:29

Yes.

Speaker 1: 23:30

Some people do it for attention seeking and self presentation. Mm-hmm and then some for impulsivity and thrill seeking Mm-hmm, what stands out for you?

Speaker 3: 23:42

Yeah, um, I think you know I have like myself and then other people popping into my head at the same time, but I think that I have caught myself in the younger part of my career, especially, um, using an embellishment to Bolster my credibility if I wanted the seat at a table In like business and industry. I remember being a young female who felt like an imposter. I had imposter syndrome and so, um, I know that I would probably make it a point to Maybe, um Use some information about an experience that I had. Maybe it wasn't a really in-depth experience, but if it was something that would get me a leg in with some credibility, I would Definitely feel like I would embellish it.

Speaker 1: 24:35

Hmm, well, the one that stands out for me is the mental health, because when you kind of dive into it a little bit, it talks about mental health disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder and attention deficit, hyper hyperactivity disorder, adhd. Um. So it's, as it can affect a person's impulse control, self-esteem and abilities to perceive reality accurately, making them more prone to compulsive lying. So I am not going to throw this person out of the bus, but, um, a person very close to me for pretty much my whole life, um, I think she had border borderline personality disorder, from what I know about it, and she actually faked a pregnancy.

Speaker 1: 25:20

Yeah she, like, gained weight, lent and shopped for maternity clothes, bought items for a child that was never going to be born, and um, now, like you know, you said at the beginning like compassion now I have some compassion, but back then I was outraged, right, how could you deceive all of us, how could you go to such great lengths to Make us get excited about a child for you? I was never there in the first place, and so that one Now you know I have some compassion for, for that type of lying that that that speaks to um a different level of, um mental illness or somebody that you know needs some mental health counseling in my mind.

Speaker 3: 26:09

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up and um, if, if you are somebody who's listening and you are, um noticing your own behavior, that might sound like that, or if you are close to somebody who, um has told, detrimentalized, that could put yourself or others at risk of safety, like that's absolutely a time to reach out for mental health, um counseling and get and get help. You know, as you were talking about that, I have worked with clients who you know they have In in moments of rejection. They will make all kinds of lies about their person and, um, telling lies about their significant other Is one way that they can control how other people see them. Um, they feel like they've lost control of the person and so they can't control the person. So they can they try to control how other people view them?

Speaker 3: 27:03

Um, yeah, yeah, so, uh, there are there's a lot of hurt and pain around some types of lying that is absolutely true. And then there are lies, um to help, you know, save face, and there's lies to you know, make life easier. It's just more convenient if I Don't have to handle somebody's upset feelings, like the example about the haircut, like that person stuck with that haircut for the next five, six months, right, yeah, and if I know, if I know that my honest opinion is going to cause harm to that person, I might decide to um Offer a minimal encourage and encourager and live in my integrity, but also not say anything. That's going to be more harmful right.

Speaker 1: 27:57

I mean, in win and doubt, can't you just say something like oh, your baby's so sweet, you know, okay. Okay, there are some moral Situations where someone might tell a lie that that we might forgive or we might see as acceptable. Um, this, this one kind of popped out, um, lying to save a life.

Speaker 3: 28:18

Whoa fascinating. Can you give me an?

Speaker 1: 28:20

example, um, it says. In situations where a life is at stake or an emergency crisis emerging crisis, lying to save someone's life might be deemed ethical. For example, if a kidnapper asks about the whereabouts of a person and telling the truth could potentially lead to harm, one may lie to prevent danger. However, I know of a situation where a lie was told to save a life and I don't necessarily think I agree with this one. It's not up to me to judge, but if we're talking about it, I okay, I'll tell you. I'll tell you the situation.

Speaker 1: 28:56

So there was um, a man, younger man, um, that was on the list for liver transplant. Okay, and one of the rules is you cannot drink alcohol, right, if you're on the liver transplant list. And um he I'm trying to remember this was a long time ago, so I might not have all these details, you know, accurate, but it's close enough. So, um, he was Sober for a very long time, got sick, got a lot worse, got moved up on the liver transplant list and um was drinking and his spouse covered for him so he could get a liver transplant. And you know, there's one part of you that's like, well, he was gonna die, and then there's another part of you that's like yeah, but if he continues to drink with this new liver, he will end up where he was, and that same liver could have saved another person's life who doesn't abuse alcohol.

Speaker 3: 29:52

Yes, yeah, and, and you know you bring up. I watched this show on netflix called new amsterdam, and medical professionals are put in these situations themselves as well. One of the characters on that show is a psychiatrist and he is trying to navigate all of these different mental health issues. And there was one situation where a mom and a Uh son were in the hospital and the mom had a brain injury and the mom could not remember her own son. And the only way that they would ever be able to have a relationship is if the son willingly told a lie to his mom that he understands what she's going through, because he actually knows somebody who had a memory loss too and he wants to be there for her and comfort her as this stranger but he was her son.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:50

And so he lied so that he could have a relationship with his mom, because she lost that part of her brain, and that was the only way around it, yikes.

Speaker 1: 31:01

Oh, this was an interesting topic today, friend. Yes, literally I showed you before we started today that there I have like pages and pages of different types of lies and consequences and things, and so you and I kind of decided ahead of time that we were going to save some of this, because it does it does impact future episodes that perhaps it would hide in more your fit, better in future episodes. So we are going to save some of this for future episodes. And, hey, we've got some things going on coming up on the podcast. We might as well fill the beans right now.

Speaker 3: 31:41

Yes.

Speaker 1: 31:42

Yeah, so we have got Dr Gupta coming up on the podcast. That's pretty exciting. He's going to talk about Hashimoto's, which is a condition of the thyroid, and we've got your friend Tracy tell us a little bit about what Tracy is going to do with us.

Speaker 3: 31:59

Yeah. So a colleague of mine, Tracy Cruz. She's actually going to introduce us to a famous psychology test that is going to give us some insights into Terry and I's friendship and we're going to be in some of our preferences based on our answers. That will give us insight and clarity about maybe some of the blind spots that we have and some growing that we could do in some of our, you know, just some growing like uncover more about self and others, and it's through a very creative psychological test. So we're going to do a little series on getting to know self through creativity and innovation. Oh, I love it.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Then we are going to wrap up this season the Soul Sisters series and we're going to take just a very brief hiatus, we think about two weeks. Yeah, she's going to be there with Amanda and we are going to be putting our heads together. We've got some great ideas for content for the new season. So we've got some exciting things coming up, and you, my friend, also have something exciting coming up and I'd like you to tell the listeners about it.

Speaker 3: 33:08

Yeah, so actually one of our guests who was on the podcast, cindy Rowe. She has a marketing company and she talked about resilience and career change and divorce and how she started her own company and became an entrepreneur. And she, after the podcast, actually decided to move forward with one of her lifelong career dreams and that was putting together a conference, a half day conference, and she invited four keynote speakers and she selected me to be one of them. I'm going to be talking about attachment theory and leadership. We have another person that's talking about mindset. Cindy is going to talk about kindness, the kindness advantage and the corporation. And then we have another speaker who was a hostage crisis negotiator and he's going to talk about how to solve problems in everyday life using principles of connection and using his experience as a hostage negotiator. So the whole point of the seminar is self discovery, self growth and networking, and again, it's called spark. We will put all of the information in the show notes If you want to check that out. We would love for you to join us.

Speaker 1: 34:13

Oh, I'm so excited for you and so proud of you. Thank you for today. I enjoyed our conversation and again soon, Until everybody, please remember to take good care of you. Take care everyone. Well, that's a wrap for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so glad to be here with you.

Speaker 2: 34:33

And just remember, we're here to serve. Reach out, connect with us on social media platforms and dig in deeper.

Speaker 1: 34:40

All those links will be in the podcast show notes. So join us. We can't wait to continue the conversation with you over there.